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Post Info TOPIC: Warning on fuel brands.


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Warning on fuel brands.


I will first start by saying there was talk about fuel in THIS thread. However, what I have found is a little different in nature.

One of the issues we had Towne MINI service check today was a slight underpowering or lag when doing hard acceleration through the gears. Think of it as when you shift from first to second at high RPM and snap the clutch back. There should be this "snap" of engagement and speed. Well, it felt more like there was a jello plate in the clutch plates.

Towne checked the clutch, engine, fluid and tried to drive the car hard. What they found shocked me. There was 21% ethanol in the gas tank. Yes twentyone. Wondering how and knowing that Kwickfill has NO ethanol in their gas, where I get my fuel, I asked my "better" half. She said that she has ONLY been going to Sunoco on Mt Read in Greece of late. Having family in the business including one Sunoco station, I know that all Sunoco gasoline has at the max 10%. I made a few calls and sure enough it should only have 10% at the highest as is tested daily at our East Ave station. We have never added anything like dry gas or anything at all to the fuel in the car. I have made a call to Sunoco in Exton PA. Due to the weather there, I got a recording that said they were closed today. I did leave a disturbing message. If I do not hear back tomarrow I will be contacting others to at least have the fuel there checked. If there is a problem on Mt Read I am sure it is isolated.

Many of you may or may not know. It is said that anything above 10% ethanol is bad for a none flex-fuel or ethanol engine. A MINI does not have one of these engine systems. Ethanol is alcohol and by nature will dry out seals and gaskets. I know what I think, but ask yourself. Is any alcohol in the gas really doing anything good? And since it does reduce your millage a bit, I also ask you why even use it?



-- Edited by MightyMo on Thursday 11th of February 2010 08:19:18 PM

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Hey Hey, MightyMo
I just wanted to comment on the fuel. I read an article about the 10% ethanol that is labeled at the pumps and to what I recall is that it is up to the tanker driver that is delivering the fuel to do the mixing.So it all depends on him.It could be 10,15 or 20%. It is mixed at time of delivery. I think this article was in NAM some where. Ill see if I can locate it. until then seeya CJ

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Motorer

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Hey hey back at ya. :)
I pray you are incorrect at least when this article pertains to Rochester and Monroe county. If you do find it, please send me a link. I would like to keep it for reference.

I know in Rochester the fuel is mixed at the depot. We at the fire department have not been informed of any taker except 1 that has any level higher than 10% ethanol for local mass consumer retail. The local takers do not carry straight ethanol 100% or denatured 95%. E85 is only in one tanker.

Yet, since there is Ethanol (alcohol) in these fuels today it is the reason that the City of Rochester has obtained 4 pumpers with AR-FFF (Alcohol-resistant aqueous film forming foam). One of those pumpers is Engine 12 at my firehouse. The others are Engine 3 - Emerson, Engine 10-Ridgeway & Dewey and Engine 17-Chestnut & Andrews. We also now have 1 ARFFF crash truck in reserve at the Airport and as additional backup Kodak has 250gal totes on a trailer for us. Gasoline fires we have always put out with water but these new ethanol fuels have to be smothered with a foam blanket.

However, this one tanker with e-85 (85% ethanol) can only make it's delivery at night and the delivery to the city/county comes in only by rail. At this time I do not know of any storage of denatured ethanol (95% ethanol-5% gasoline) in the county of Monroe.

So back to the main topic. If they are now mixing from the tanker it is big news and we need to look into it. If it is happening here now, then there is a problem we need to solve on the Fire Department/legal level.

You may remember the tanker fire on 390 by MCC several years ago of the one on Ridge Road and Lake Ave. They were fires with no ethanol. If we get a fire with a taker full of anything higher than maybe 10 or 15% mix, we will not be able to put it out with the equipment we have At this time.

-- Edited by MightyMo on Thursday 11th of February 2010 11:33:55 PM

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Motorer

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Scott
Here is the link to the ethonal page /http://www.fuel-testers.com/state_guide_ethanol_laws.html
Go half way down the page to where it says Caution Warning and there it is. All the ethanol data you need is here. Have a safe day and happy motoring.CJ

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Motorer

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Thank you.  Nice find.smile The section you refer to is this:

The percent of ethanol may be incorrectly added by the local fuel distributor.
In most areas ethanol is added to the tanks by the delivery truck drivers, (local distributor); And, very few gas stations monitor or check ethanol content (% added) of fuel delivered and contained in the gas pump.

From what we have been told and researched,  The fuel here is mixed at the Tank farm or Depot. You may have see one of these along Rt 390. The State/County/City and Rochester Fire department give the permits in this area for the storage, mixing and transportation of the fuel. The Federal government is also involved at many levels.

I received two calls today. One was my brother-in-law in a panic over his East Ave. station. He made a test of each of the underground tanks himself this morning. They tested out at about 10%. The second call I get was from Sunoco in PA. They took a lot of information. And they are looking into what has or is happening on Mt. Read. I was told that I should hear back shortly.

I don't think I will hear back or at least hear anything except that "at this time the all fuel being dispensed at the Mt read Sunoco location is within exceptable limits". If they do not clear it up (if it has not already been done) and admit to a troubling situation, then they would have many government organizations involved along with lawyers and fines. My only hope is that they are indeed looking into it and if there is a problem, solve it. I have no doubt that they will.


-- Edited by MightyMo on Friday 12th of February 2010 05:58:38 PM

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By the way. At Twone the car was programed for the Ipod add on. The car was plug into a computer for around 90 mins. Yes, for 90 mins it just sat there talking binary to another computer. What Towne did was upload any and all updates while it was there. When we left towne there was about a 1/4 tank of gas left. Near the Leroy exit we put in 1.5 gals. I felt like a cheap***. :) Then buy the time I got to KwickFill it was almost empty. Ran it for about 2 mile and took it on 390 and the Parkway. WOO! HOO! it was alllliiive! OMG. This car can book. We had a zig around zoom zoom back.

-- Edited by MightyMo on Friday 12th of February 2010 06:06:15 PM

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Interesting, alarming thread. What does the State Department of Weights and Measures do? (I guess one could make an assumption or two from their name.) Isn't ethanol content ione of the metrics they calculate? I honestly know nothing of their program, but a quick look suggests this is right up their alley, unless I'm missing something. Here's a link to their website: http://www.agmkt.state.ny.us/WM/wmpetrol.html




-- Edited by tedscar on Saturday 13th of February 2010 09:14:40 PM

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Nice post. I find the line "We try to inspect about 60% of the stations in each municipality each year " most interesting.

I was hoping that Sunoco could self check it themselves. That way all will be fine in the end. Yet if I do not get a followup call tomorrow I was going to be calling and turning over my paperwork to weights and measures.

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Update: I have received several phone calls (6) and emails (4) form a company that handles claims for Sunoco. The first time she called I ask why are you calling me? I have no claim to file. She replied that all customer reports go to that office. I then said that I only hoped to make them aware of what was found. On the third call I said that I would like to make a claim (since she keeps calling) for 20.00 which would cover the cost for the fuel and tolls to and from buffalo. She then ask if I had the receipts. LOL

Anyways, I have sent them a copy of the service report that shows how Towne measured the 20% ethanol. Of course.....I got a call back. She informed me that even though a simple test can be done it still must be sent out to a lab which can take days. OMG! I was also informed that the fuel in Rochester is mixed at the terminal and if there was a problem it could be more widespread. OMG again. I let her know that I just wanted to let Sunoco know and hoped that they could just send a person over to that one station and do a quick check. No claim, no fuss just to be informed.

Well, I understand that there is now a scope of about 40 people involved from Sunoco, the claims company, management at the station, courier service and a lab. What the heck. Just look at the tanks! And I was going to call the State Department of Weights and Measures on Kim's suggestion. Thankfully I didn't. When all is said and done in 15 years I guess (LOL), I will be receiving a copy of the full report and forward it here for all of us here to view.


Can you believe this?

-- Edited by MightyMo on Saturday 20th of February 2010 02:03:19 PM

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Motorer

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I guess the moral of the story is to gas up at Kwik Fill! Thanks for all the info wink.gif

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And hopefully, your check for $20!!! With interest!!!

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MightyMo wrote:
Well, I understand that there is now a scope of about 40 people involved from Sunoco, the claims company, management at the station, courier service and a lab.


Well see...who said one person can't make a difference in the world? Look at all the people you're keeping busy with your inquiry!

 



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tedscar wrote:
Well see...who said one person can't make a difference in the world? Look at all the people you're keeping busy with your inquiry!
___________________________________________________________

LOL And we wonder why fuel cost are high.
PS
No updates at this time. :(


-- Edited by MightyMo on Wednesday 3rd of March 2010 02:48:17 PM

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Is it true that Kwik Fill does not have ethanol?  I thought by NYS law, they all have to have 10%.

Someone told me Hess did not have ethanol, but I discovered they do indeed have 10%.  That's why I question the Kwik Fill claim.

BTW, I live in Gates (sounds like it might be close to you), so which Kwik Fill station are you going to?

-- Edited by Russell on Thursday 22nd of April 2010 12:41:32 PM

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Russell wrote:

Is it true that Kwik Fill does not have ethanol?  I thought by NYS law, they all have to have 10%.

Someone told me Hess did not have ethanol, but I discovered they do indeed have 10%.  That's why I question the Kwik Fill claim.

BTW, I live in Gates (sounds like it might be close to you), so which Kwik Fill station are you going to?

-- Edited by Russell on Thursday 22nd of April 2010 12:41:32 PM



I asked Kwik Fill.  Here is their response:

We currently have several locations in New York state that have been converted to an E-10 gasoline. (10% ethanol).  The location will have notices posted at the dispensers stating that the fuel does contain 10% ethanol.

 

Please be advised that by January 1, 2011, all gasoline sold in the United States will contain ethanol. This is part of a federal mandate under the Clean Air Act/Renewable Fuel Source Standard.


 



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Greetings from Erie PA.  I have been following this thread with a lot of interest since I have been spent the last twelve months trying to avoid ethanol in any of our vehicles.  We own a 2002 Mini Cooper which we ordered from Towne in June 2002 and will be taking out of winter storage tomorrow.

Kwik Fill is refined in Warren PA.  About two months ago I checked a station and did not see an ethanol notice.  Went inside and asked if the gas contained ethanol and was told "I was told no".  Have been buying gas there ever since.

Prior to getting gas at Kwik Fill, for the last twelve months I have been buying at brands based on whether there was an ethanol  and what the employees said.
At stations without ethanol notices I have had responses to questions such as "I don't know" or "yes, just a little" (Shell). 

Very, very frustrating.  Good luck to the owners going to the Glen this weekend.

The Bennetts






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George & Marion 2002 Mini Cooper BRG/White Delivered by Towne September2002


Motorer

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Russell wrote:

 

Russell wrote:

Is it true that Kwik Fill does not have ethanol?  I thought by NYS law, they all have to have 10%.

Someone told me Hess did not have ethanol, but I discovered they do indeed have 10%.  That's why I question the Kwik Fill claim.

BTW, I live in Gates (sounds like it might be close to you), so which Kwik Fill station are you going to?

-- Edited by Russell on Thursday 22nd of April 2010 12:41:32 PM



I asked Kwik Fill.  Here is their response:

We currently have several locations in New York state that have been converted to an E-10 gasoline. (10% ethanol).The location will have notices posted at the dispensers stating that the fuel does contain 10% ethanol.

 

Please be advised that by January 1, 2011, all gasoline sold in the United States will contain ethanol. This is part of a federal mandate under the Clean Air Act/Renewable Fuel Source Standard.


 

 




Now that is bad news.

Why all this ethanol? It does burn cleaner in a engine yet your millage goes down slightly which in turn means you burn more fuel. Then there is all the use of corn to make the ethanol. The result is increased need for water softener salts (potassium used in production of corn alcohol). The price for a homeowner to purchase the softener product has gone from $6 to $25.00 a bag in 4 years. Then there is the transport of denatured alcohol or 95% ethanol / 5% gasoline (so no one drinks it). It is a major nightmare if there were to be an accident with a fire. It does not go out easily.

There was a mini van fire near Goodman and Norton a few nights ago and Quint/Mini 7 from Goodman responded. Normally they would pull 1 line off one of the trucks and put the fire out. This one though was different. The fuel tanks seam cracked and 2 lines flowing around 400+ gallons of water a min. could not put it out. Gasoline fires and water will play good together normally but once alcohol is added to the mix it becomes what is called a "Polar" solvent. It does not mix with water and just spreads.
After 3 mins fighting this fire they called for a foam company. Thats where my house, Engine 12 (a foam truck) on Wisconson and East Main came in. We rushed over there and had to pull 400' of 1-3/4 hand line. We used AR-FFF (alcohol resistant) foam at a rate of 3% and had it out in 30 seconds. It also cost the city $300.00 for the 3 gals of foam concentrate we used. Yep, we only need 3 gals of AR-FFF mixed in the water but it still has a big cost. If this was a gas only fire, the cost of water only might have been about 3.00.
So I guess the Government is helping America again.
Good thing we can't get these cleaner burning Diesel engines in America.furious

P.S.
Sunoco does not have a final report on our incident in the first post. Nope, no $20.00 check yet.smile Which is better? Big oil or Big Government? lol


-- Edited by MightyMo on Tuesday 27th of April 2010 10:37:01 AM

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About four months ago I started to use Kwik Fill gas to avoid ethanol.  The Kwik Fill station (Erie, PA) where I have been getting gas had signs on the pumps today "Kwik Fill contains up to 10% ethanol".  Signs were not ther a week ago.

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George & Marion 2002 Mini Cooper BRG/White Delivered by Towne September2002


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Stony,
A sad day indeed. Good thing we have the government telling us what is better for us. UGG

Only 116 days left until the mid-term election!!!!!!!!!!

-- Edited by MightyMo on Friday 9th of July 2010 11:45:15 PM

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